[PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead?

Wed Sep 30 20:05:47 EDT 2009

"Quality" of a mass produced good isn't comparable to "quality" of a crafted
item like software.  Whether your bobble head doll is stamped out in China
or the US makes little to no difference to its quality. There's nothing
resembling the kind of teamwork required in software, communications
required, design skills, etc. There's no "essence" as Brooks put it in
stamping out a bobble head doll.

            Leave it to me to change a discussion towards philosophy...

It's fine to change the discussion focus, but let's pick an analogy that's
closer to apples to apples, rather than apples to lawn mowers...

From: javamail-bounces at pjug.org [mailto:javamail-bounces at pjug.org] On Behalf
Of Howard Abrams
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 11:16 AM
To: javamail at pjug.org
Subject: Re: [PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead?

As I've been following this thread, I'm struck by how much the word
"quality" has been bantered around. We feel that we can justify our higher
cost due our better quality, but this strikes me as not very tenable. I
mean, how often do each of us shop at Walmart for our sound systems as
opposed to Echo Audio or Bose, What about Winco vs New Seasons, or... you
get the picture. As both business-people and consumers, we often choose
cheaper Chinese goods instead of better quality versions from the U.S.. 

I have a toaster made in 1950 that still works (I've blogged about the
details <http://www.howardism.org/thoughts/001074.html> ), but few people
are willing to spend extra money for a perceived increase in quality.

Of course, some people will spend more on something that they feel will last
longer or has another aspect of "value". People who purchase Macs typically
say the extra value they feel they are getting is worth the extra cost. But
"value" is a difficult metric, and while one person may claim that a Mac is
"better", another can disagree with the same reason.

While it is beside the point, I have found plenty of code produced by
American engineers that lack quality.

My point isn't to start up any flames (esp with your Mac and PC zealots out
there), but to get us thinking that maybe we, as a community of engineers,
could come up with more tenable arguments to back up our "quality"
rationale:

*	Language, timezone, culture, and communication.
*	Long-term support and maintenance
*	Produce code closer to requirements quicker
*	Better able to render business requirements into business code

Leave it to me to change a discussion towards philosophy...

On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Nimret Sandhu wrote:

On Tuesday 29 September 2009 10:18:25 am Umesh Gohil wrote:

I am following this thread closely and thought to give my suggestion.  No

Biased thought. My question is Why outsourcing take place? When you think

from management point of view then they want to reduce cost of software and

maximize profit.

( reducing cost of software && maximizing profit) != quality product 
necessarily

I think it's very short sighted to automatically assume that there are 
benefits in outsourcing just because it is cheaper .. esp ignoring the other

costs in terms of distributing your workload/workforce globally: 
communication issues, increased management costs, liability issues, etc etc.

I am not saying that it can't be done .. but there are lots of challenges 
which are simply overlooked cuz people think it's cheaper.

How management can achieve this ? All of us know Labor or Employee or

Contractor in US is not cheap. If Mngt want to maximize the profit then

they have to find alternative and alternative is nothing but out sourcing.

All business has few advantage and disadvantage . Like that outsourcing

also has advantage and disadvantage. 

Software development   is faster,

Production support is there 24/7 and so on. 

not necessarily. when I was working with offshore teams and any issue came
up, 
we pretty much had to wait until the next day to resolve it. But if you're 
working with someone who has similar office hours or an overlap issues are 
resolved way more quickly. A simple thing which could be resolved in 10 mins

can literally lead to a day's turnaround time!

again, 24/7 support and development sounds like a great idea but falls short

in practice.

If you calculate also then

Avg Employee Cost $45 -  $50 per hour

seattle rates are higher than that for *quality* programmers.

Offshore Cost $20 -- $25 per hour  [ $5 overhead cost ] Then also it is

less than what avg employee cost.

factor in the overhead cost of:
- breaking up the work so that it can be worked in tandem
- keeping track of the work as it is being done
- acceptance testing
- following up on issues as they arise
- latency associated with working across timezones

and all of a sudden the hidden costs start showing up and the rate
comparision 
isn't quite the whole picture.

btw, last I managed offshoring work 4-5 years ago, the rates were more like
4 
programmers in Bangalore for 1 american programmer. Out of the 4, 2 were 
junior level and only 1 of the two experienced programmers was really worth 
his salt imo.

Some company are laying standard's for offshore team also like Sun

Certification, Master degree , Few years of experience and so on. So that

they get quality product.

well, don't even get me started on that. All I have to say is:
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2009/gb2009017_807784.htm

I used to work at a startup back in the 2003 timeframe who had a
disagreement 
with their offshore partner but hadn't thought of that contingency. I
believe 
their entire source repository was downloaded remotely if I remember 
correctly. I am not saying that this is the norm for offshoring, just 
pointing out that this company decided to be what they thought was cost 
effective but ended up paying for it by losing their crown jewels. They just

hadn't thought things through.

A lot of companies/folks make the mistaken assumption that the business
rules 
in foreign countries rae the same as the US. Heck, even France/Germany have 
different work/business rules than the US does .. nevermind the rest of the 
world.

All of these things have to be factored in when companies are thinking of 
off-shoring and to some extent even partering with other entities within the

US.

Software Engineering in US is not dead at all. But we need to learn new

technology and be ready.

after having said my .02 about outsourcing I will say that we are competing
in 
a global economy and there will be all kinds of programmers everywhere
around 
the world: excellent, mediocre and those who probably should not be 
programming. The key is to remain up to speed on new and upcoming 
technologies and being competitive.

cheers,
-- 
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.com
http://www.nimsoft.biz
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