[PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead?

Wed Sep 30 14:16:10 EDT 2009

As I've been following this thread, I'm struck by how much the word  
"quality" has been bantered around. We feel that we can justify our  
higher cost due our better quality, but this strikes me as not very  
tenable. I mean, how often do each of us shop at Walmart for our sound  
systems as opposed to Echo Audio or Bose, What about Winco vs New  
Seasons, or... you get the picture. As both business-people and  
consumers, we often choose cheaper Chinese goods instead of better  
quality versions from the U.S..

I have a toaster made in 1950 that still works (I've blogged about the  
details), but few people are willing to spend extra money for a  
perceived increase in quality.

Of course, some people will spend more on something that they feel  
will last longer or has another aspect of "value". People who purchase  
Macs typically say the extra value they feel they are getting is worth  
the extra cost. But "value" is a difficult metric, and while one  
person may claim that a Mac is "better", another can disagree with the  
same reason.

While it is beside the point, I have found plenty of code produced by  
American engineers that lack quality.

My point isn't to start up any flames (esp with your Mac and PC  
zealots out there), but to get us thinking that maybe we, as a  
community of engineers, could come up with more tenable arguments to  
back up our "quality" rationale:
Language, timezone, culture, and communication.
Long-term support and maintenance
Produce code closer to requirements quicker
Better able to render business requirements into business code

Leave it to me to change a discussion towards philosophy...

On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Nimret Sandhu wrote:

> On Tuesday 29 September 2009 10:18:25 am Umesh Gohil wrote:
>> I am following this thread closely and thought to give my  
>> suggestion.  No
>> Biased thought. My question is Why outsourcing take place? When you  
>> think
>> from management point of view then they want to reduce cost of  
>> software and
>> maximize profit.
>
> ( reducing cost of software && maximizing profit) != quality product
> necessarily
>
> I think it's very short sighted to automatically assume that there are
> benefits in outsourcing just because it is cheaper .. esp ignoring  
> the other
> costs in terms of distributing your workload/workforce globally:
> communication issues, increased management costs, liability issues,  
> etc etc.
>
> I am not saying that it can't be done .. but there are lots of  
> challenges
> which are simply overlooked cuz people think it's cheaper.
>
>> How management can achieve this ? All of us know Labor or Employee or
>> Contractor in US is not cheap. If Mngt want to maximize the profit  
>> then
>> they have to find alternative and alternative is nothing but out  
>> sourcing.
>> All business has few advantage and disadvantage . Like that  
>> outsourcing
>> also has advantage and disadvantage.
>> Software development   is faster,
>> Production support is there 24/7 and so on.
>
> not necessarily. when I was working with offshore teams and any  
> issue came up,
> we pretty much had to wait until the next day to resolve it. But if  
> you're
> working with someone who has similar office hours or an overlap  
> issues are
> resolved way more quickly. A simple thing which could be resolved in  
> 10 mins
> can literally lead to a day's turnaround time!
>
> again, 24/7 support and development sounds like a great idea but  
> falls short
> in practice.
>
>> If you calculate also then
>> Avg Employee Cost $45 -  $50 per hour
>
> seattle rates are higher than that for *quality* programmers.
>
>> Offshore Cost $20 -- $25 per hour  [ $5 overhead cost ] Then also  
>> it is
>> less than what avg employee cost.
>
> factor in the overhead cost of:
> - breaking up the work so that it can be worked in tandem
> - keeping track of the work as it is being done
> - acceptance testing
> - following up on issues as they arise
> - latency associated with working across timezones
>
> and all of a sudden the hidden costs start showing up and the rate  
> comparision
> isn't quite the whole picture.
>
> btw, last I managed offshoring work 4-5 years ago, the rates were  
> more like 4
> programmers in Bangalore for 1 american programmer. Out of the 4, 2  
> were
> junior level and only 1 of the two experienced programmers was  
> really worth
> his salt imo.
>
>> Some company are laying standard's for offshore team also like Sun
>> Certification, Master degree , Few years of experience and so on.  
>> So that
>> they get quality product.
>
> well, don't even get me started on that. All I have to say is:
> http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2009/gb2009017_807784.htm
>
> I used to work at a startup back in the 2003 timeframe who had a  
> disagreement
> with their offshore partner but hadn't thought of that contingency.  
> I believe
> their entire source repository was downloaded remotely if I remember
> correctly. I am not saying that this is the norm for offshoring, just
> pointing out that this company decided to be what they thought was  
> cost
> effective but ended up paying for it by losing their crown jewels.  
> They just
> hadn't thought things through.
>
> A lot of companies/folks make the mistaken assumption that the  
> business rules
> in foreign countries rae the same as the US. Heck, even France/ 
> Germany have
> different work/business rules than the US does .. nevermind the rest  
> of the
> world.
>
> All of these things have to be factored in when companies are  
> thinking of
> off-shoring and to some extent even partering with other entities  
> within the
> US.
>
>> Software Engineering in US is not dead at all. But we need to learn  
>> new
>> technology and be ready.
>
> after having said my .02 about outsourcing I will say that we are  
> competing in
> a global economy and there will be all kinds of programmers  
> everywhere around
> the world: excellent, mediocre and those who probably should not be
> programming. The key is to remain up to speed on new and upcoming
> technologies and being competitive.
>
> cheers,
> -- 
> Nimret Sandhu
> http://www.nimret.com
> http://www.nimsoft.biz
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