[PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead?

Tue Sep 29 13:18:25 EDT 2009

Hi All,

I am following this thread closely and thought to give my suggestion.  No Biased thought. My question is Why outsourcing take place? When you think from management point of view then they want to reduce cost of software and maximize profit. 

How management can achieve this ? All of us know Labor or Employee or Contractor in US is not cheap. If Mngt want to maximize the profit then they have to find alternative and alternative is nothing but out sourcing. All business has few advantage and disadvantage . Like that outsourcing also has advantage and disadvantage. Software development   is faster, Production support is there 24/7 and so on. There are some fact that we all know and we cannot ignore developed software is outdated soon coz of competitive market. Management has to take some decision about being in business so they provide consumer what ever they demand for

Eg : Yesterday only website was available for online transaction 
Now you can do with all transaction with iPhone. 
Tomorrow something else

Cost of software is not reducing. Cost of Employee is not reducing.

If you calculate also then 
Avg Employee Cost $45 -  $50 per hour
Offshore Cost $20 -- $25 per hour  [ $5 overhead cost ] Then also it is less than what avg employee cost.

Some company are laying standard's for offshore team also like Sun Certification, Master degree , Few years of experience and so on. So that they get quality product. 

Software Engineering in US is not dead at all. But we need to learn new technology and be ready.  

Regards
@Umesh

From: joe at intelopment.com
To: chriskessel at verizon.net
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:24:55 -0700
CC: javamail at pjug.org
Subject: Re: [PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead?

Even with the typos, these are really good points.
I also have seen the corporate mandate directive (reduce R&D budget by 20%) be implemented in ways that accomplish the goal, but cost the business even more.  Brooks's law and Peopleware are great references for these points.
As for career moves, pursuing a masters in software engineering, where these concepts are (hopefully) really explored and hopefully enables the graduating student  to argue and debate these points is a great move.  Then move up in the ranks of your organization and help senior management explore the total cost of these decisions and really calculate the true ROI.  A few graphs don't hurt.
The goal isn't to save jobs or be protectionist about it.  The unions already showed us this isn't helpful in the long run.  The goal is to become part of the business decision cycle and teach not just your fellow coder about efficient software development, but teach the business people as well.   I think they'd make the right decision if they  had all the facts.   Help them  collect the facts and be equipped to invest in the business, not just accomplish a short term (give me my bonus) goal.
joe

On Sep 28, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty wrote:Bleah, forgive the typos. Eyes are tired apparently. I even proof read it and still missed it badly. This is why I don't program at night :) From: javamail-bounces at pjug.org [mailto:javamail-bounces at pjug.org] On Behalf Of Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:32 PM
To: javamail at pjug.org
Subject: Re: [PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead? I've seen a steady trend of outsourcing. Sadly, I really don't expect that trend to end. Looks great on the books. "We have 1000 programmers, but only 60% the cost of an  equivalent organization!"  The host of inefficiencies in coordinating off shore development is a silent cost that only those that have to work directly with it ever see. Management simply sees how "lean" they've made their R&D budget, but not the pain in the trenches. To see the negatives they'd have to measure pre-outsourcing productivity with post-outsourcing and compare a couple years of data to see what's really going on. That's just not going to happen. I can only speak fro person experience/observation, but it's mostly phantom savings. You largely get what you pay for. The truly talented off shore either join/form local companies and create a product (rather than work in contract houses) or they move to the US or other countries that can pay more. Consequently, the "cheap" outsourced engineers tend to not be the cream of the crop and the few that are tend to turn over fairly quickly as they get one of those higher paying jobs and you lose them.  Peopleware's note about the best programmers being 10-100x more efficient than poor programmers really kicks in. Combine that with Brooks law of communication issues in larger teams and the benefits of outsourcing vanish rapidly. Better to have 1 top notch local guy at 100k a year than 5 average remote guys at 20k a year. Also, well I've seen in at least one case, the outsourced work bills by the hour, which means the engineers and QA have little incentive to automate anything as it reduces the number of hours they can bill. I've also seen a real lack of initiative to improve anything in the infrastructure (builds, scripts, cron jobs, you name it) as anything that speeds up the process reduces billable hours. Unfortunately, the management folks that get don't know (or don't care) about the lessons learned in things like Peopleware and Mythical Man-Month. In fairness, they're given incentive goals like "reduce R&D to 12% of total budget".  When that's your mandate, outsourcing looks awfully good. From a job security viewpoint, I suppose you could try to get into government work related to defense or national security. Federal laws tend to prohibit outsourcing those jobs due to security concerns. From: javamail-bounces at pjug.org [mailto:javamail-bounces at pjug.org] On Behalf Of steve.j.hall at tektronix.com
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:36 AM
To: javamail at pjug.org
Subject: [PJUG Javamail] Is software engineering in the US dead? Is software engineering in the United States dead? I am currently working in Java and Java EE creating and maintaining applications that support global manufacturing and service.  I have been with this company approaching 4 years.  I have recently been notified that the manufacturing facility in which I work is being moved to China.  Accordingly, my current job will end sometime in 2010.  This is the second company in a row that has notified me that my services will no longer be necessary as they are moving this job function to over seas providers.  I have contributed significantly to some great projects during my career.  However, looking back over the 11 years I have been involved in software it seems to me my career has been anything but upwardly mobile.  In fact, looking back it is evident that four organizations in the past ten years have been filling a role, while planning on consolidating to another region either within or outside the United States.  Naturally career growth and upward mobility in such an organization is non existent.   To provide a more complete picture, below is a summary of my background:B.S. in Computer ScienceSun Certified Java Programmer11 years in software development, 8 years focused on Java and Java EE.  I work in all layers from the database to the user interface, full SDLCLots of other skills: team lead, team building, interviewing, management, project management, and the like. I have seen the resumes of the candidates we are hiring in China; the resumes are generally peppered with the names of American corporations going back at least 5 or 6 years.  I have had discussions with former colleagues who have shared their experience when their employer has outsourced to India.  In short, there is strong evidence of a shrinking industry here in the United States.  None of this makes me mad, as I don’t believe that I am somehow more entitled to a job than someone in India or China is.  However, it sure would be a lot easier to navigate the global economy if there was some type of road map. I am interested in PJUG member’s opinions on whether software engineering as a career direction in the US is still viable, or whether this is a dying industry as software engineers cannot compete in a global economy? I am also interested in opinions of where I should focus my efforts if I do stay in software engineering: Additional certifications in the Java EE platform; learn Spring and Hibernate, EJB3, something else? Will a Masters Degree in software engineering be necessary to be viably employed in this industry in the United States?  Would an MBA be a better idea?  Should I give up and become a homeless bag man? Please be candid, you will not hurt my feelings. As a service to PJUG members, I will consolidate responses and post back to the group unless the response specifically requests that I not do so. Thanks in advance,Steve Hallstevejhall at verizon.net

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