[PJUG Javamail] Spring versus Seam

Tue Oct 20 02:18:17 EDT 2009

Hi Ken,
Ryan has removed just about every external dependency from the JSF api/impl.

That really perked my interest as to how he might have done that.Did he use
any tools to find those ext dependencies ?

Vijay

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Ken Paulsen <Ken.Paulsen at sun.com> wrote:

>
> Hi Vijay,
>
> You *can* use the JSF 2.0 jars in the older GF v2 (JavaEE 5).  You should
> be able to use them easily w/ tomcat as well (not sure if there are any
> version requirements -- or why anyone would use Tomcat over GlassFish).
> JBoss should be compatible as well (again not sure about versions).
>
> The Mojarra JSF 2.0 api/impl jars do contain OSGi meta-data (this is a
> requirement imposed by GlassFish v3), so they should be recognized by an
> OSGi container.  Not sure if anyone has used it that way outside of
> GlassFish, though.
>
> As for backward compatibility... that was a requirement, however, I do know
> of "new features" that behave slightly different that can cause problems in
> obscure use-cases.  For example, state-saving has been significantly
> optimized, however in some very dynamic applications this can lead to
> problems that did not exist in JSF 1.2.  In these cases, you can disable the
> new features and your application should still be 100% backward compatible.
> Ryan Lubke (Mojarra implementation lead) is very good about fixing anything
> that breaks backward compatibility.  Ryan has removed just about every
> external dependency from the JSF api/impl... so it's much more compatible
> with different containers / versions that it has been historically.
>
> If anyone wants to be involved in the Mojarra project, the best was is via
> IRC at ##JSF (irc.freenode.net).  Ryan and many of the other Mojarra
> developers / eg members are on there frequently.
>
> Ken
>
>
> Vijay Balakrishnan wrote:
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> What would be really great if I could plugin the new jsf-api and jsf-ri
> jars and el jars for 2.0 into any J2EE app server and be able to use them
> assuming full backward compatibility to older versions like JSF1.1 ?
>
> Is this a pipe-dream with OSGI etc ?
>
>
> TIA,
> Vijay
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ken Paulsen <Ken.Paulsen at sun.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> In case anyone is interested in the latest and greatest in JSF... JSF
>> 2.0's first production-ready implementation was released today:
>>
>>     http://twitter.com/edburns/status/4997863308
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> Ken Paulsen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> If you have the choice, you should consider JSF 2.0.  The EG tried to take
>> the best concepts from frameworks like Seam and Facelets and make them
>> standard features.  Component creation is MUCH easier, Ajax support is now
>> standardized and very easy to use, resource handling is finally addressed.
>> You may not have a need for Seam or Spring if you use it (although depending
>> on the features you're trying to use, you may still want them).
>>
>> As Vijay suggested, use Facelets -- JSP's are being discouraged in JSF
>> 2.0+, some new features will only work w/ the Facelets syntax.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Ken Paulsen
>>
>>
>> Vijay Balakrishnan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>  That is good to know but wanted to correct 1 comment. Seam works equally
>> well if not better with NetBeans. If you work with Hibernate as your O/R
>> mapping layer or JPA, Seam will serve you really well. If someone loves
>> Spring, you can integrate Seam with Spring too.
>>
>>  Having worked with JSF and all its bugs in the various implementations,
>> Seam is definitely a game changer and way more stable than something like
>> Spring Roo. I do love Spring for its D.I. Spring Roo though I will stay away
>> from for at least 1 more year. The best part about Seam is being able to use
>> Facelets for the UI layer instead of JSPs.
>> The recommendation would vary based on what Bruce's needs were but he is
>> already using RichFaces for his web app and moving to Seam should be
>> easier.If he were using Spring MVC for his current web app, my
>> recommendation would be much different.
>>
>>
>>  Vijay
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty <
>> chriskessel at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  We used it about 9 months ago on a project where I worked and Seam was
>>> nice in concept, but just chocked full of bugs. All sorts of problems with
>>> iterators on persistent items and such, especially as related to Seam GUI
>>> components. We spent a lot of time working around bugs and/or trying to
>>> figure out if if something was us or the Seam library with the probelm. We
>>> even had a couple, um, Red Hat(?, whoever bought JBoss) consultants helping
>>> us work around the issues and it was still painful. Seam was pretty heavily
>>> tied to Eclipse only too, so if you're not an Eclipse-only shop, you might
>>> have cross IDE issues.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 9 months ago though is a lifetime in the maturity of an early product, so
>>> take my comments with a grain of salt for how it might be today. Personally,
>>> I like Spring and would probably use that and it's JPA integration with some
>>> other GUI entirely (like GWT, Tapestry, etc).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* javamail-bounces at pjug.org [mailto:javamail-bounces at pjug.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Vijay Balakrishnan
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2009 2:23 PM
>>> *To:* Bruce Kaufman
>>> *Cc:* javamail at pjug.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [PJUG Javamail] Spring versus Seam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have looked at Seam and it is definitely a very elegant, tightly
>>> integrated solution for a stateful web app trying to access a hibernate or
>>> JPA based app on JDK5. Seam also takes care of the back button issue like
>>> Spring MVC. It also integrates ICEFaces and RichFaces in and also has jBPM
>>> support with Drools(I think). Seam takes care of the LazyInitialization
>>> issue that happens commonly with Spring apps talking to Hibernate(source of
>>> a long email chain on PJUG recently). That is 1 of the main reason Gavin
>>> King, the Hibernate guy went for the jugular in his dispute with Spring
>>> which is a stateless framework. Seam also plays well with Spring framework
>>> if you insist on it.Spring is trying to get back at Seam with Spring Roo but
>>> it is still in beta and a newly started project.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Seam fixes a lot of the issues with JSF1.2 and handles all the scenarios
>>> you have mentioned below.
>>>
>>> "Seam In Action" is a great starter book.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have a backend database schema you can point to, seam-gen Ant task
>>> will generate all the CRUD code all the way to a working Web UI using JSF
>>> and Facelets(it uses HibernateTools for the reverse engineering and
>>> Hibernate templates to generate the UI/View layer).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vijay
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Bruce Kaufman <bjan11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am looking to refactoring my web application (currently RichFaces) to
>>> use either Spring or Seam. I am looking for a more elegant solution for
>>> "stateful" situations and the "browser back" key.
>>>
>>> Has anyone recently evaluated them and have any comments?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bruce Kaufman
>>> www.WoodsWithNoBorders.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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